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 Post subject: JT Tranny Update...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:29 am 
Well, I finally took my Rubi in for service and this what they found (as annotated on the invoice)...

"-Problem: Difficulty shifting
--Cause: Binding
---Bearing, clutch release-replace 4/5 speed manual transmission
---Sleeve
---Bearing-clutch release
---Joint
---Universal joints; single piece shaft-replacing single piece shaft-one-at front axle
Pilot bearing binding road tested to verify complaint. Removed trans and inspected. Found pilot bearing worn and binding. Also found release bearing noisy. Replaced pilot bearing and release bearing. Also resealed input shaft bearing retainer due to leak. Reinstalled 4X4 equipped trans and retested. While performing above repairs, found front U-joint on front driveline worn. Replaced U-joint."


Okay, so having said all of that, can anyone translate this into simple English for me? As stated in my previous post regarding my Rubi's tranny, I am SO not a mechanic and would like some perspective on this situation from some real Jeep experts.

Specifically, I'm wondering what causes these parts to fail and what, if any, thing I should be looking out for or be concerned about in the future as a result of these repairs.

BTW, all of the above work was covered under the warranty and didn't cost me a nickle. Thank goodness! I can only imagine what this would have cost.

As always, thanks in advance to everyone for your help!

JT


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:29 am 
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Location: Caliente, NV
The pilot bearing is the bearing (used to be a brass bushing/sleeve which in reading, your's might be as well) that sits in the end of your crank, and the front shaft of the transmission sits inside it. It basically is a friction point for the two when the transmission is engaged or disengaged, or in neutral, and the bearing spins, eliminating the friction. To my knowledge, there are none that are grease-able, they are sealed and a part that can go for years and thousands of miles, or die when ever they feel like it. They are not a continuously turning bearing, so they can achieve a long life span. Other than maybe "riding" the clutch pedal, they are pretty much unaffected by anything else going on. To give a case in point, my SII has the original bearing in it, and it is 30 years old with 145K on the clock. If yours is a bushing/sleeve, it is impregnated with oil to lube, and will basically wear out and allow slop (vibration) or seize (like it sounds like your was doing) causing hard shifting as it slows the shaft too much. Sleeves can last just as long as bearings if they choose to, and don't see abuse. Constant friction causes heat, which can cause galling, which leads to seizure.

The release bearing, also known as a "throw out bearing" is what turns on the main transmission shaft when you step on the clutch to engage the clutch. It turns at engine RPM until you release the clutch (to go or putting in neutral) at which point it stops turning, unless the clutch is out of adjustment. Yours may or may not be grease-able. Most new ones are a sealed bearing as well, or use the hydraulic fluid to lubricate. Older cars used linkage for the clutch actuation, where as most everything new are hydraulic, many using brake fluid as the hydraulic fluid. Good thing about hydraulic is they are constantly being adjusted to wear, unlike linkage clutches which have to be adjusted (like mine) often. They wear according to clutch usage, the more you use it, the more it wears. Riding the clutch at high engine RPM's is their worst enemy. If it can be greased, then obviously not greasing it is a bad thing too. Clutches out of adjustment will cause them to turn constantly, just like riding the clutch does.

The U-joint is the "knuckle" that is on the end of your drive lines. Most OEM ones are sealed, but most everything that is sold as a replacement, whether OEM standard or a 4X upgrade, comes with the option of being grease-able. Lack of grease, stress (like tight articulation or heavy throttle on solid ground) and outside abuse (hitting rocks, water, dirt) does them in. Many can go for years with out issue, but 4X's, muscle cars that get driven hard, etc see the ones that fail the quickest or repeatably.

The bearing retainer is plain and simple. It retains the front main bearing on the main transmission shaft, and allows transmission fluid to lube the bearing, as well as hold it in place. Find a way to stop leaks 100% for life and you'll be a billionaire.


I'd find out if your release bearing and u-joint are grease-able, which anyone else (fellow Jeep geeks :wink: ) will likely know right away if they are. But I'm guessing they are not, at least OEM wise. If they are, grease them regularly and try to not abuse them. If not, then try to save abuse and forget about them, as there's not much else you can do. Unless you do ride the clutch, they likely just failed. Parts do that.

Another thing to think about is it would be ignorant of the tech to not fix or check for as many things as he can while in there. One reason is he gets paid for it, and second, if any related parts were to fail within a certain time frame, they'd come down on him for not doing so. So it's quite common to see numerous things repaired when maybe just one was the culprit, especially under warranty.

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All Jeep trails had to first be Scouted.

1978 IH Scout II Lifted, locked, blah,blah,blah.
2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee, Her car.
1992 Ford F350 XLT 4x4


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:08 pm 
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Location: Las Vegas
Kudos to the dealer for fixing the items they noticed along the way, and not quibbling about vehicle misuse. Care to mention their name?

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2007 Toyota FJ


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:04 pm 
I had the work done at Desert Jeep where I purchased my Rubi. My only complaint was that I was without wheels for over a week while they were waiting for parts to arrive.

I was very pleased that the technician and service manager both dug deeper into the suspect part(s) and replaced parts sheerly out of the "well, might as well do this one while we're at it" work ethic. Being covered under the warranty was useful and gave them much more freedom to dig in and look for potential issues. I would not have expected that level of service if I was actually paying for it because quite frankly, I would have had to have opted for the minimalist approach based on my meager military income.

I don't believe I'm riding the clutch. I've owned several manual transmission vehicles (including a '95 YJ) and I've never encountered this before. The only thing I can think of is the Rubi gets a fair amount of on-road abuse. Driving the freeway or surface roads takes its toll; especially with my commute from Henderson to Nellis and Creech AFB's. I'm averaging around 120 miles per day now and have put several thousand city miles on the Rubi in fairly short order. Also, it's not uncommon for me to drive from Henderson to Indian Springs to Nellis AFB, back to Indian Springs and then back to Henderson in a single day. I can, at times, put over 200 combined city-hwy miles on the Rubi a day.

I have to admit it, I am regretting the manual transmission option now. It seems that all I do is shift and its getting tiresome. If I had it to do over again I would definitely opt for an automatic transmission; especially with the horrible traffic I have to deal with every day.

One quick question: Does anyone think that it is possible that the lift kit install could have caused the geometry to get out of whack, causing the binding issue, etc? At the time the lift kit was installed I had a heavy duty drive shaft installed and am wondering if that perhaps that caused the U-joint to go, etc. if it was not properly aligned upon installation. I think I read that somewhere once and was wondering if that is a possibility here. Again, please forgive my ignorance if I'm totally out in left field on this one. :oops:

Thanks for the help and I'll keep you all posted if I have any other issues. And you can bet I will DEFINITELY be asking for your expert opinions in the future. :wink:

Cheers!
:D
JT


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:09 pm 
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Posts: 840
Location: Caliente, NV
JT wrote:

One quick question: Does anyone think that it is possible that the lift kit install could have caused the geometry to get out of whack, causing the binding issue, etc? At the time the lift kit was installed I had a heavy duty drive shaft installed and am wondering if that perhaps that caused the U-joint to go, etc. if it was not properly aligned upon installation. I think I read that somewhere once and was wondering if that is a possibility here. Again, please forgive my ignorance if I'm totally out in left field on this one. :oops:



The lift/drive line wouldn't effect the throw out bearing and pilot bearings. Mainly because the transmission/transfer-case are bolted to the motor as one in line unit, and the fact that any drive line issues would affect the transfer case first, then the rear transmission bearing, etc up to the pilot, if it made it that far. So you'd have numerous other problems first. Likely, you just got some iffy parts that decided they had enough. My stint as an auto tech for Ford and a part seller at auto stores showed me that not every new car (or part) is trouble free from the get go.

If the u-joint has a bad angle, it could cause failure. But IIRC the front shaft only turns when engaged in 4X in newer Jeeps? So it shouldn't wear out that fast. If it turns all the time, and it has a bad angle, then yeah it's likely. But hopefully the tech would have noticed any issues of that nature when doing the repair. The angle has to be pretty extreme for that to be of serious threat though. And you can usually hear/feel them when they get bad. If the new one goes bad again in the same amount of time (mileage and offroading) as the last one, then obviously you have an issue.

_________________
All Jeep trails had to first be Scouted.

1978 IH Scout II Lifted, locked, blah,blah,blah.
2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee, Her car.
1992 Ford F350 XLT 4x4


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:25 pm 
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Location: Las Vegas
holy moley, I thought I did a lot of driving! :shock:

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ɹǝʌo ǝɯ ןןoɹ sıɥʇ pɐǝɹ uɐɔ noʎ ɟı


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:49 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:57 pm
Posts: 186
Location: Hanford, Ca
JT

I have a copy of the 03 Factory Service Manual in PDF format. If you would like a copy, I will make one, and send it to Geno for him to pass to you. It has a lot of good info, and all the part numbers for your jeep.

I have used mine a couple of times while working on the Jeep. They do come in handy, and with it being in PDF format, it is also on my computer all the time.

Todd
Navy-Jeepster

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BRC, Cal4Wheel, and my local clubs.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:50 pm 
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Location: Durango & 95
GaryB wrote:
But IIRC the front shaft only turns when engaged in 4X in newer Jeeps?


Nope, the front shaft turns all the time. The disconnect is in the T-Case. It is possible that the heavy duty drive shaft is out of balance or alignment causing the binding. If it was either however, I would think it would have shown itself with all the driving you do.

I would stick with Desert Jeep if you have any warranty work in the future. They could have easily said that the lift was causing the binding on the front drive shaft and not fixed it for you.

On a side note, I drive to Creech everyday. If you are heading up this way, you are more than welcome to ride up with me. I live on the North side of town, and leave home at about 6:45, leaving Creech at around 1545. You can park your Rubi in my garage if you like.

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2002 Wrangler (TJ)-Gone, Sheila got it in the Divorce
2004 Rubi - Street tires and an UGLY bug guard - let the mods begin!
1992 XJ-Sold, Hope to get another when I get back to the States.

NBMC/CC/MP/LD


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:41 am 
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Location: Caliente, NV
andy02 wrote:
GaryB wrote:
But IIRC the front shaft only turns when engaged in 4X in newer Jeeps?


Nope, the front shaft turns all the time. The disconnect is in the T-Case. It is possible that the heavy duty drive shaft is out of balance or alignment causing the binding. If it was either however, I would think it would have shown itself with all the driving you do.



Hey I learned something new about Jeeps, heh :P

I agree though, if it turns all the time, and was out of balance, there would be vibrations. From my experience, drive line vibrations tend to damage the seals and bearings before the u-joints too.

_________________
All Jeep trails had to first be Scouted.

1978 IH Scout II Lifted, locked, blah,blah,blah.
2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee, Her car.
1992 Ford F350 XLT 4x4


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:31 pm 
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Location: Vegas baby!
Wow, that's some serious info. I'm glad you posted the update JT. I was wondering about your problem last weekend when we went on the Funeral range fun run and passed Indian Spgs on the way up. It's a great thing you got that taken care of under warranty.
I also had the same problem w/y CB radio when I mounted the antenna on the rear bumper. Bob gave me a magnetic mount antenna which I put on my hood and had no problems after that. I'm going to get one of those antenna mounts that go behind the tail light which hopefully will take care of the issue.

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'04 Red Rubi, a bunch of stickers, a cb antenna, 4" lift, 33" BFG Muds, Tom Woods drive shaft, Smittybilt winch, AFW bumper, Garvin wilderness rack.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:15 am 
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Location: Henderson, NV
I'll have to try Desert next time. My '05 WK is under warranty still. They had to throw a new block in it at 30K!! :shock:

It has never even seen a trail yet, unless you count the dirt behind my house up off of Horizon Ridge. ( My wife drives it!).

Anyway, I went to Chapman and they took 2 weeks to repair it. Must have been a new mechanic!! Oh well. At least I didn't have to pay for it!!

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