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 Post subject: Please Read...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:36 am 
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Location: Henderson...
This caught my attention yesterday......
Opinion Section Wed LVRJ

LETTERS: Trust bureaucrats with land-use decisions

letter
http://sincity4x4.org/viewtopic.php?p=1944#1944

who is good at rebuttal?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:13 am 
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ETTERS: Trust bureaucrats with land-use decisions

To the editor:

In response to your Aug. 21 editorial about the closure of Henderson's Pipeline Road:

State and federal land managers, even under the Bush administration, cite off-road vehicle use as one of the major sources of damage to our public lands. Off-roaders show little responsibility in their activity, creating new roads that cross archeological sites, sensitive habitats and highly erosive slopes.

The direct cost to the taxpayer for the degradation of public lands includes increased wildfire frequency, introduction of invasive species and dust and soil deposited into our air and streams. In Clark County alone, the cost of dust mitigation from off-road vehicles is estimated to be around $16 million.

The Review-Journal editors are incorrect when they state blowing dust is a normal feature of the desert. Dust is a feature of a damaged landscape and -- with the exception of dry lake beds or sandy deserts -- a healthy desert will produce little dust in high winds. The breaking of the cryptobiotic crust by off-road vehicles exposes the soils beneath to the winds, creating dust storms with resultant respiratory problems.

Off-roaders need to understand that the Bureau of Land Management and Forest Service manage the land for all of us, not for a minority who scar the land, introduce noise where we should reasonably expect quiet and degrade the outdoor experience for all other users.

A right of access to our public lands does not translate into the foolish argument of a right to drive vehicles all over the place regardless of the impact. Excluding vehicles does not "lock people out" because humans have colonized islands in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and every continent, except Antarctica, without motorized travel.

When citizens seek to protect an area for its beauty and biological integrity, the Review-Journal editors have advocated they purchase the property. Organizations including the Nature Conservancy, the American Land Conservancy other national and regional environmental organizations have done just that.

But when confronted by folks whose activities degrade our landscape, the editors don't advocate the same approach -- purchasing land for off-road activities -- or even an expectation of behaving responsibly, but rather assert that off-roaders have a nonexistent "right."

The roads the BLM and Forest Service are closing are generally user-created and exceptionally destructive. It is foolish to argue that folks who use our public lands merely as a backdrop for racing across the landscape or seeing how high up a hillside they can go are in a better position to decide land management policies than college-educated professionals in our state and federal land agencies.

Steve Brittingham

MOUNT CHARLESTON

Steve Brittingham needs to get his fact straight.






This is in response to Steve Brittingham's letter:

Mr Brittingham is obviously one of those stooges who no rational thought about land use issues. he has an idea that he and ONLY he and his ilk ought to be able to use the PUBLIC LANDS for which >I< and others PAY TAXES. You need to learn to share.

Aside from the implication that OHV users are all uneducated (he must mean white-trash rednecks), he further complicates the issue by saying the voting, taxpaying public has no say so in how THEIR land is used.

Well, gee, how about the guy in the Nevada Backroaders with a MASTERS DEGREE IN PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION, Mr Brittingham? Generalizations about certain types of people usually goes under the category called "prejudice."

How about the business owners? the nurses? the biologists? the teachers? the military men and women who fight for your pathetic weaselly way of thinking?
You sound like one of those people that if I teach them that 2+2 is 4 you will say it equals 5 no matter how foolish you look, just to prove a point.


Excluding vehicles DOES indeed lock people out. That's the logical conclusion I draw from your statement. ah, but I forget logic is being thrown out here on this issue.

Ever hear of the ADA, Mr Brittingham? since you sound like you don't know, it's called the Americans With Disabilities Act.
This means that people among us are disabled. That means they have trouble getting places. Not all of them are able to hike in to very remote places. Legally, they should be allowed access. And since a wheelchair is very impractical, they may have to use a vehicle. Putting a carsonite sign up at a Wilderness boundary that says wheelchairs can go in is not acceptable and borders on the insane. Especially when there is a perfectly good trail in there.

It is also important Mr Brittingham that, yes there are Irresponsible OHV users, but there are JUST as many irresponsible hikers and rock climbers who don't care where they go and what they vandalize when they bolt up to the rocks.

the fact remains that while there are a few bad apples in ever lot.

No one advocates blazing new trails in this day and age, but there is not a thing wrong with using established roads and trails that take us to places not otherwise accessible.

Organized Jeep trail runs are usually slow moving and stick to established trails. And never ever deface anything. I invite Mr Brittingham to come along with us one of these days.

Life's too short, man. have fun out there.


John Hinrichs
Las Vegas


there's your rebuttal.

did i go too easy on him?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:03 am 
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Back when I hiked a lot, 2-3 days a week, I followed many "hikers" that left rubbish behind. And these were hiking only trails. No OHV or bike, horse, etc. mode of transportation allowed. Everything from candy wrappers to beer bottles. So since they too defaced the land, the trails should be closed to everyone since it's proof no human can properly take care of the land. Close everything off to everyone. Nothing but the birds and bugs and squirrels can trek there. Abolish the Dept. of the Interior, which includes the BLM, and the NFS since land management wouldn't be needed, hence saving the American people billions in expenditures. Then we can all sit around and look at trees and mountains in pictures while burning pine scented incense.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:22 pm 
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My rebuttal:
http://www.sincity4x4.org/viewtopic.php?t=614

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:27 pm 
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Location: Henderson...
JJ wrote:
ETTERS: Trust bureaucrats with land-use decisions



Lucy wrote:


AWESOME!!!

let`s hope LVRJ prints your responses

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:46 pm 
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I like Lucy's better. mine was just gut reaction...she did research.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:28 pm 
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Location: Henderson...of course
I encouraged Lucy to respond to Mr. Brittinghams' letter over on the Sincity4x4 site. She presents her information in a manner backed by the facts and very eloquently.
I sure hope she does.
The letter from Mr. Brittingham certainly stirred up my ire!!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:10 pm 
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JJ wrote:

there's your rebuttal.

did i go too easy on him?


Absolutely! You didn't mention his hair, his ethnicity or his mother's footwear. 8)


p.s. Wheelchairs aren't allowed in a wilderness.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:45 pm 
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Location: Henderson...
Andy Steiner wrote:



p.s. Wheelchairs aren't allowed in a wilderness.



Those with disabilities may use wheelchairs within Wilderness.

The Americans With Disabilities Act of 1990 reaffirmed that nothing in the Wilderness Act should be construed as prohibiting the use of a wheelchair in a wilderness area, although agencies are not required to provide special wheelchair access. A 1992 report by the National Council on Disability found that a “significant majority of persons with disabilities surveyed very much enjoy the [National Wilderness Preservation System], and 76 percent do not believe that the restrictions on mechanized use stated in the Wilderness Act diminish their ability to enjoy wilderness."


Accessibility Guidebook for Outdoor Recreation and Trails
http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/program ... page04.htm

36 CFR 212.1 defines a motor vehicle as any vehicle that is self-propelled, other than:

1. A vehicle operated on rails.

2. Any wheelchair or mobility device, including one that is battery powered, that is designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion, and that is suitable for use in an indoor pedestrian area.

Wheelchairs that meet this legal definition may be used anywhere foot travel is allowed.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:11 pm 
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yeah, last time I saw a wilderness sign, it said you can't take a Jeep, ATV, or even a hang glider.


but a wheelchair symbol was allowed.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:47 am 
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mac wrote:
Those with disabilities may use wheelchairs within Wilderness.


It was my understanding that nothing mechanized could be used inside a designated Wilderness. No bicycles, not even an egg beater.

I stand corrected.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:50 am 
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I think they'd outlaw that if they could though...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:19 am 
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the tree huggers had to abide by the ADA or risk lawsuits up the wazzoo. they figured that few if any wheelchair riders would actually venture very far into a wilderness area so they went with it. but any other mechanized items are VERBOTTEN in wilderness areas. firefighters aren't even allowed to use chain saws or aircraft to fight fires in a designated wilderness area. one of the reasons they burn so much. 8)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:37 am 
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brad/duuuude wrote:
firefighters aren't even allowed to use chain saws or aircraft to fight fires in a designated wilderness area. one of the reasons they burn so much. 8)


Yep, just ask Kalifornia why they have had fires burning for months because of fire roads/breaks having been allowed to grow over.

Then comes the rain, just in time for mud slides and avalanches.

But at least those pesky OHV folk didn't ruin the scenery!

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1978 IH Scout II Lifted, locked, blah,blah,blah.
2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee, Her car.
1992 Ford F350 XLT 4x4


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